March 2008: Recently Rose and I had a chance to have a talk with Mike Suchcicki, the original creator of "Ghoulash: The Last Game On Earth (TM)", and his son and Game Development Partner, Joe. We asked a lot of questions, and got a lot of answers. Mike is a very verbose person and answered many of the questions we had planned to ask before we asked them. Joe is a bit more quiet and brief but very well spoken and direct to the point. Our questions covered everything from the original 1982 release of the game, through the 2nd release on the web, all the way up to the current printed release. We asked mostly questions about the game but also a few basic personal questions about their lives. So grab a sandwich and a drink, and start reading... But wait until you have a bit of time on your hands, this might take you awhile to read. ;)

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Joe (Left) and Mike (Right) Suchcicki Creators of Ghoulash

Vic Graves: Hello Mike, Joe. How are you today? Mike Suchcicki: Doing well, thanks! How are you folks? Joe Suchcicki: Hello. Rose: I'm doing well. Vic Graves: I can't complain, so I must be doing good.

VG: Before we really begin, I'd like to say thank you for agreeing to this interview. We really appreciate the opportunity.

MS: No problem. Thanks for asking us.

VG: Most of the early questions are obviously for you Mike. Later we will get to questions just for Joe. But of course if you have something to add Joe, feel free at any time, even if the question is directed to Mike.

JS: all right

VG: From what we understand, Goulash began sometime in 1982. Home Computers were in their infancy and games for them were just beginning to trickle out to the public. As such board games were still quite popular. Role Playing Games (RPGs) were also fairly new and were just beginning to make a major sweep across the world. What prompted you to create Ghoulash at this time?

MS: You're right, RPGs were not as common as they later became. I had some friends who were heavily into D&D, but I never got into that mindset. On the other hand, I liked the dynamic and wanted to get in on the action, although I wasn't looking forward to spending hours obtaining and studying manuals and such (something that Joe does now!). So, my early impetus for creating the game was to create an RPG/dungeon crawl that could be easily learned and played by two people, with each person being the other's dungeon master. By the way, even though I never got into D&D, I did begin playing other RPGs, including Star Trek, James Bond, Ghostbusters and Paranoia.

Mike Suchcicki in 1982 from a Local newspaper article about Ghoulash.

VG: How old were you when you started making the first draft of the game? MS: (pulling out the calculator): Let's see ... I would have been 24. Rose: - so about the time that Joe was born? JS: pretty much MS: Joe was born in 84, two years after the first edition of Ghoulash.

VG: Did any of the board games or RPGs of the time influence the creation of it, specifically?

MS: Actually the influence was not so much from other RPGs, because I wasn't too familiar with their mechanics. The major influence for the atmosphere of the game came from the zombie movies of the time, particularly the original version of Dawn of the Dead. I took that environment and translated it into a game mechanic that would allow the dual-dungeon-master dynamic. The irony was, I never saw Dawn of the Dead. All I knew of it was from what my roommates at the time told me.

Rose: Have you seen it since then?

MS: Still haven't seen it, nor the remake. I'm just too squeamish for horror movies, believe it or not. I just thought it would make a cool game.

JS: me neither

Rose: I'm a little squeamish as well - but I've seen both movies (Vic is a horror movie fanatic). (Laughs) - We have horror movie festivals every week. (LAUGHS)

JS: :)

VG: We have not only seen Dawn of the dead and the remake but we own both on DVD. They are wonderful movies, and we really enjoy the Zombie and Zombie-esque genres

MS: If you haven't already read it, I heartily recommend Max Brooks' book "World War Z."

Rose: cool - I'll definitely look into that.

MS: I've seen Shaun of the Dead, that's about it for zombie movies.

VG: As you said, the movie "Dawn of the Dead" had an influence over the creation of Ghoulash. Also we know that you had not seen the movie, and in fact are not a fan of Horror Films. So what kind of role, specifically, did this film play as an influence?

MS: Basically, after hearing my roommates' description of the survivors-in-a-mall concept, I thought that would translate into an interesting action/adventure game. Also, there was a little bit of influence from Charlton Heston's "The Omega Man," the whole concept of having to go out into the city for food, etc., but having to battle your way against this terrible menace. When you get the original, you'll see a LOT of differences from the current version. First of all, the guns shoot real bullets, and you're also on the lookout for Scavengers and other dangers.

VG: I Loved Heston's "The Omega Man" and Vincent Price's "The Last Man On Earth" - Heston's was a remake of Price's. Recently Will Smith's "I am Legend" is yet another remake of the same story. So the concept of Ghoulash is basically a combination of Zombie Survival stories and these films?

MS: Yes, although I really can't tell you how the basic concept of zombies wound up as a Ghoul. If I remember correctly, the idea of a Ghoul came after I came up with the name Ghoulash. As I mention in the history essay on the site, I had originally written down the word "ghoulish" and later read it as "ghoulash." Once I decided on that as a name, I think I changed the creatures from zombies to Ghouls. That's when the basic appearance of the Ghouls -- and hence the logo and the other illustrations -- came to me.

VG: If you don't like Horror Films, why create a game that would easily fall with in a Horror Genre?

MS: Because the concept lent itself to an interesting game mechanic: The "hero" must go out into the hostile City for food. The zombies (Ghouls) made a great threat that could remain constant throughout the game. Also, to tell the truth, I was looking for a concept that could be simplified into a two-player game played entirely on charts, without having to get into such things as spells, abilities, characteristics and other things you find in the D&D-type RPG. In other words, I like the idea of zombies; I'm just too squeamish to go to see them in movies.

Rose: (Laughs)

VG: (Laughs) - I can understand that. There is a big difference between seeing it and imagining it. How long, approximately, did it take you to come up with the idea and basic concept, the beginning stages, for Ghoulash? And how long, approximately, did it take to create and work out the kinks and bugs of the first version of the game?

MS: To come up with the basic concept took only a few days. To come up with a workable version, however, took weeks and weeks, during which time my very patient friends were kind enough to help me play test. The early versions, even though they took place on a single sheet of paper, included many things that didn't wind up in the final, 1982, version. For instance I had roving packs of mad dogs that would chase you if you encountered them. I had cars that you could drive around the city. And the game was played on a time table, beginning in daylight and progressing into nighttime. If you were caught outside after "dark," you risked even greater threats (a la "The Omega Man," etc.).

Rose: - sounds very complicated

JS: it was

MS: Too complicated.

JS: but fun non-the-less

Rose: it sounds like it! Survival of the fittest.

MS: The final (1982) version retained a lot of elements, but not too much to burden the player.

Magazine Information: The "Short Takes and First Impressions" column of the now-defunct ADVENTURE GAMING magazine (Vol. II, No. 3, Copyright 1982 by Manzakk Publishing Inc.) Cover (Right) & Ad (Left)

VG: How did you go about marketing the first version of the game? MS: Locally I had a friend who ran a game store, and the game was placed there. Then, I ran an ad in Adventure Gaming magazine (now defunct), in hopes of building buzz. I had hopes of getting into more stores, but I began to realize that the packaging of the game suffered from a basic flaw: It was but a single scenario that easily could be photocopied. There was no reason why someone would come back and repurchase the game. Or, if you had a friend who owned a set, you could easily copy your own. (Copy stores were just becoming prevalent then.) That's why the marketing of the early version originally petered out. VG: About when was it that you chose to shelf it for awhile? Why didn't you try to re-work it right then?

Mike Suchcicki's "Sense of Humor Doll"

MS: For the next few months after it first came out, I worked on sending out samples and building buzz, but the flaws eventually became evident and I just let the thing fall by the wayside. I always kept it in the back of my mind, but didn't really devote myself to it for a number of years. You see, I've always had a lot of different projects going (to which Joe can attest). For a number of years I had aspirations of becoming a syndicated cartoonist, and I spent year after year developing different comic strips. I've also worked on other game ideas (none of which, unlike Ghoulash, ever saw the light of day), novels, comic books and novelty items. At one point I marketed a little plush doll called a Sense of Humor. It was a little jester-shaped thing. The idea was, the doll represented your sense of humor, and when things got bad you could pick it up and say, "Well, at least I have my Sense of Humor." I sold a couple of thousand of those things, primarily through humor-oriented catalogs and gift stores. I later sold the merchandising rights to the Sense of Humor to a company in Canada. In other words, there were a lot of other projects over the years that took priority over Ghoulash. Finally, in 1997, I really cracked down and decided to resurrect the game once and for all.

Rose: You sound very industrious. Was it a love of creating things that keeps you inventing things?

MS: I'm very big into creativity. In fact, I once tried to market an educational book concept called "Creativity Gym." It was a collection of creativity exercises for youngsters, the idea being to help them exercise their creative "muscles." I also would go around to the local elementary schools, giving a slide show/lecture on creativity.

Rose: So you are a public speaker as well as inventor?

MS: I've done a lot of public speaking, mostly to schools, although I've done the occasional Rotary and Kiwanis group as well. I also do a lot of speaking in connection with my day job, as a newspaper editor.

Rose: So between your day job and your "moonlighting" - you keep rather busy?

MS: Pretty much, although these days I'm concentrating solely on Ghoulash. Although I still do some creative writing, I'm mostly working on marketing the game and developing the G website. Fortunately I have Joe to help with the creation of the scenarios.

JS: (Point’s to Himself)

VG: Well your busy life seems to be paying off with Ghoulash. So you didn't actually do any major work on Ghoulash again until 1997. What prompted you to pick it up again and try once more?

MS: Ghoulash always was in the back of my mind, and I knew there was a simple answer to the basic marketing flaw (specifically, how do you market a game played entirely on paper?). Finally it occurred to me: Play Ghoulash over a variety of different scenarios, each one with its own grid, obstacles and victory conditions. That way, you could theoretically keep the audience coming back for more. In 1997, I conceived of a version of Ghoulash that would be published in a digest-sized magazine like a puzzle book, with new scenarios every issue. At that time, I also was getting into web design, and I began to explore ways in which I could use the Web to publish and promote Ghoulash. I kind of got away from the puzzle book idea and began posting scenarios for free download on the web site, just to see what kind of reaction I would get. The game became pretty popular, although I was just giving it away. Finally I realized I had to face reality and put the game into some kind of marketable form. That's when Joe and I decided to revisit my puzzle book idea and publish the scenarios of the game in a regular magazine format.

Rose: So Joe was about 13 when you re-started the work on Ghoulash? Was he the inspiration to go back?

MS: Yes, he was. Joe always has been into gaming. I introduced him to Magic: The Gathering and other games. He and I were heavily into Mage Knight and other miniatures play for awhile. And as I mentioned, he continues to be heavily into D&D and other RPGs and CCGs. He's also big into MMORPGs like World of WarCraft. I'm no longer as much into gaming (other than Ghoulash!) because of the time factor. But the fact that he and I both enjoyed games so much inspired me to buckle down and put more time into Ghoulash.

VG: When did you first release the second version of Ghoulash to the web exactly?

MS: The "current" version of Ghoulash was launched on the Web in 2001. The scenarios could be downloaded as free PDFs. At the time I had the site set up so you needed to register in order to download. If the registrations were to be believed, I had folks from all over the world downloading the game. The free PDF scenarios, by the way, are not the scenarios that are in the first three Scenario Packs.

Rose: Are the free PDF scenarios still available?

MS: Not currently. I'm getting ready to repackage them into online scenario packs that will be available for online purchase and download as PDFs. You'll need to pay for them, but not as much as for a "hard copy" printed version. Realize that the current version is, basically, the version that was launched in 2001, with just a couple of cosmetic changes. There are only two versions of Ghoulash. The 1982 version and the current version, launched in 2001.

Rose: So the web version has just transitioned into the print version of today?

MS: Yes, that's correct. I just withdrew the web versions from circulation and created new scenarios for the print version.

VG: Did it take all the time from 1997 to 2001, when you released the second version to the internet, to get the game re-worked or were there some delays? Why so long before the world saw Ghoulash "v2.0"? MS: Well, first I had the concept of creating different Ghoulash scenarios, and at first I tried replicating the original concept, which required that each player have three sheets of paper (three charts) to play. Then I realized that that was too complicated for the marketing strategy I had in mind. So I worked on whittling the game down in size and scope. From trying to create a prototype for a digest-sized publication, I realized that I could fit two grids plus the required support graphics and info all on one sheet of paper. That's when I had the "Eureka" moment of creating the Scenario Chart as it exists today. Then I worked on editing the rules down to a manageable size, which eventually also fit on one sheet of paper. All of this trial and error and prototype creation took a lot of time. I have reams and reams of prototypes, both from the 1982 version and from the revision. And remember, during this time I had other projects in the works, my day job and also the job of raising those meddling kids (Joe and his sister). Just kidding.

JS: I was a handful

Rose: (LAUGHS)

VG: (Laughs), How long was the second version of Ghoulash on the net? When did you take it down?

MS: The revised version remained on the web for a few years, at least from 2001 to 2005. Then I began to resurrect my plan to finally publish the game in a marketable version. Realize that whatever my skills in game design, they're much better than my skills as a businessman. It was also around 2005 that I really began to involve Joe in the business plan, asking his advice and bouncing ideas off him. I started phasing the free PDFs off the site and preparing the Ghoulash fans out there for a paid version. For a brief period of time I attempted to sell PDF downloads, but that was unsuccessful.

VG: This second internet version was apparently very popular. Would you say this is a fairly accurate statement? Why do you think it was so much more popular than the first version?

MS: Based on the number of registrants to the original 2001 Ghoulash site (about 1,000 before I shut down registration), I think it's an accurate statement. I think players like the novelty of the game, the fact that it's played entirely on these paper charts and that it can be played anywhere at any time. I still remember the e-mail from Marco Statua, who wrote the Italian translation of Ghoulash, who said that he thought that Ghoulash was a perfect game because it could be folded up, put in his pocket and taken anywhere. I also think there's a small contingent who is getting into the mythology of the game, the Ghouls and Ghoo and malectoplasm and all that. Joe might also have some thoughts on this.

VG: Any thought's Joe?

JS: I think having the story there does help in a big way because it helps to paint a picture. Another review we had even said that the players that tested it got more into the game because there was the story that kinda made them feel as if they were part of it

Rose: no problem - So the game became popular worldwide?

JS: yes very much so

VG: Before we start talking about the current print version of Ghoulash, let's talk more specifically to Joe for awhile. Joe, When did you first become involved with the game? How old were you when you saw it for the first time and played a game?

JS: Let’s see......Mike may be better with the specific dates than I, but I'm pretty sure it was about the time I was a preteen, 10 or so, that Mike first had me play his original version. I had a lot of fun I even showed it to a few of my friends and we played a few games. But it wasn't until a few years ago that dad told me about the new version of the game and what his plans for it were. He also asked me if I wanted to form a partnership. I gave it some thought, but agreed to do it just because I thought it would be a fun adventure and I really liked the game and that it we had a good solid product.

VG: When did you first start to help with its design and re-creation?

JS: Not until we sat down and started talking about ideas for the first book. Even before that when we had web scenarios, I would come to Mike with ideas for new scenarios and stories all the time.

VG: About when was that year wise?

MS: That would have been in 2006-2007. Joe was great about coming up with scenario concepts. For instance, the concept of Gun Shy (player starts with no weapon). Then we would brainstorm on how to get the concept boiled down to one sheet of paper. If you'll notice in the first three printed scenario packs, Joe created two of the three scenarios in each book.

VG: Did you think things needed changing, re-working, or otherwise modified when you started to help, say rules wise?

JS: Not so much on the basic rules

VG: So mostly you just help out with the Scenarios and stories?

JS: Pretty much, I also help arrange certain things. For example, I took care of our getting into MegaCon not to long ago, while Mike concentrated on Ghoulash game wise

VG: They say working with family can be hard. Most people recommend strongly that one should never work with family as it can always cause problems and even rifts in families. Do either of you have any worries about that happening?

JS: Not at all, Mike and I differ all the time. I think it helps that we are both the creative type. We bounce ideas back and fourth all the time

VG: Have you two ever argued about things relating to the game? Such as rules or scenario settings?

MS: The only conflicts I can recall involve having to take Joe's concepts, which can be quite ambitious, and working them into a single-page scenario. But it's not so much arguing as it is passionate brainstorming. Also, we differ over scenario titles. He came up with a scenario set in a boiler room and I wanted to call it Boiler Room, but he wanted to call it something else. What was it, Joe?

JS: Non-Scence. The name I wanted had to do with the rules for the scenario more than the setting

MS: That's right, Non-Sense, because the Ghouls would not be able to "sense" the presence of the humans. So, I'm going to design a scenario of my own set in a boiler room and call it Boiler Room. So there.

JS: and now we have 2 scenarios. problem solved

MS: That's not the first time we got two scenarios out of one concept. When we were first developing the scenario "C-4," I realized that we had created a scenario with a major flaw. We fixed the flaw, but were able to rework the original flawed scenario into a viable grid and successful scenario.

Rose: (Laughs) - it's good to see family being able to work together like you two do.

VG: Well it's good that you work well together. Has working on this game together had any effects on your home lives? Do you think that working together has strengthened your relationship? And if so, how?

MS: I think Joe likes me now.

JS: (Laughs)

MS: And I have to at least pretend to like Joe, because he's sunk his own money into the game. Oh well, that's business.

Rose: (Laughs)

MS: Seriously, I think working together really has strengthened our relationship.

JS: We always got along just fine, we had typical family drama but nothing to serious

VG: That's good. One last thing, specifically for you, Joe. We mean no offence, but we have noticed, and we assume many others have as well, that you don't talk at all in the Web Videos, and your Blog area on Ghoulash.com is rather barren of entries. So we are left to wonder, why don't you talk in the videos and why don't you say much in your Blog?

MS: Can't wait to hear this answer.

JS: Well the video for one thing was a design choice we made, to have kind of a pen and teller thing going, plus I don't have a very good recorded voice. As for the blog, to tell the truth I didn't know I had my own set up. But now that I know You’ll be hearing from me a little more -- just a little.

MS: I don't think I ever told Joe what his login was for the blog. Oops. At MegaCon, Joe talked a lot with folks, so he DOES talk, believe it or not.

Rose: (Laughs) - I think the videos have been great! You both have a wonderful presence on screen and a great sense of humor!

VG: That and she thought "Penn and Teller" when we came up with the question. (LAUGHS)

MS: Thanks, we enjoy doing the videos. We're getting ready to do a video about our AGN program. We were supposed to do it weeks ago, but life got in the way.

VG: Well life happens, C'est la vie as the French say.

VG: Let's back get on to the current version of Ghoulash. In 2007 a new release of the game is made. This time, like the first version, in print. Did you find people preferred or wanted a printed version?

MS: Actually there was resistance, because the game was free for so long. If you look at some of the comments over at BoardGameGeek.com, for instance, a lot of folks revised their ratings because it was now for sale. Actually we are preparing other versions. We've had requests for a downloadable PDF version, as I mentioned before, and that's almost ready. But I think the printed version is slowly but surely catching on. More and more stores are becoming interested in it. I think the printed version is doing a good job of selling gamers on the fact that it comes in different scenarios, and hence there are new "versions" coming out every so often. So, we'll have our print version, an online downloadable version and other variations that are on the drawing board.

VG: From what we really understand, from talking to you to this point, the first version of Ghoulash really didn't have a story behind it - And the second version (Net and Printed) do. Is that right? When did you decide to add the background story and why initially?

JS: That's a question for Mike, there was a story when I came in. I think it started when he wrote his first short story, that’s were the characters and basics came from, we have been working on it ever since

MS: The whole concept of Ghoo and Malectoplasm came about when I was trying to make the game less "violent." To tell the truth, when I was revising the game back in the late '90s, I was reacting to the protests against video game violence. I figured I would head off such protests against Ghoulash by taking out the concept of "bullets" altogether. I came up with the idea that instead of firing bullets at the Ghoul, the player was, in effect, firing the equivalent of a Super Soaker or a paintball gun at the Ghoul. That's when I came up with the idea of Ghoo. From there the whole thing about Ghouls forming from Malectoplasm just grew as a background story. Then, when I decided to beef up the Ghoulash mythology with the whole Ghoulash Adventures concept, I filled in all the details about where Ghouls come from, and the three main GA characters, etc. I wrote the first Ghoulash Adventures short story in 2002. Unfortunately it took me five years to write the second story. I'm in the process of writing the third; I hope it doesn't take another five years to finish. Our plans now, by the way, include introducing a Ghoulash Adventures web comic to the site.

JS: I actually had the third installment done in the form of a mini-comic

MS: The web comic will be posted in installments.

VG: So it has helped the game a lot in popularity and marketing? Would you say the popularity is still up there with the Web release? Better? Worse? Gaining speed and will presumably be as popular if not more so before long?

MS: I think the popularity is growing with the current release. Our presence at MegaCon in Orlando already has had an impact. More folks are finding us each day. We're still hoping to find that tipping point, however.

Rose: Do you have plans on attending more conventions - such as Sci-Con, Dragon-Con and others?

JS: yes. we had a lot of fun and id like to go again when we get the chance

MS: We're hoping to make it to Dragon-Con, but we're not sure if we can make it this year.

Rose: great! - I know that a lot of my friends attend these conventions and I've spoken about Ghoulash on more than one occasion. I'll let them know to look out for you.

MS: Thanks!

VG: When did you decide to write the web based short stories about the game and why?

MS: The concept of Ghoulash Adventures came about because, to be honest, I was trying to anticipate the possible merchandising of Ghoulash. I began thinking about what a Ghoulash animated show would be like, and I came up with the concept and the three main characters. Because I'm only a mediocre cartoonist, I figured I'd have a better time of it if I put Ghoulash Adventures into words instead of pictures, so I began the short stories. Each short story, however, is supposed to represent a typical "episode" of a GA animated series, if there was one. Joe and I are planning to expand the GA visibility on the site, in hopes that we might lure some interested parties to the game via the adventures.

VG: When did you decide to add the Mini-Comics to the Scenario Packs?

JS: I think it was actually for filler space,.. wasn't it? but I’m glad we did. It paid off in a big way

MS: Sort of for filler space. During our original conception of the print version. We thought it would help if we could, in some way, get players involved in the Ghoulash mythology. It also helped to fill out the four extra pages we had budgeted in the book. As Joe mentioned earlier, it turned out that some players really get into the Adventures, to help them put a "reality" on the scenarios.

Mike Suchcicki's "Ghoul" Tattoo

VG: Who drew the original graphics for Ghoulash? The graphics from the original version are still present in the current version aren't they? MS: I designed and drew the original graphics. The current "Big GREEN Ghoul" logo is the original cover design from the 1982 version, just in color. Most of the Ghoul graphics in the current version are either holdovers or slight revisions from the 1982 version. The Ghoul illustration on the back of the scenario packs, the one holding up the book, is actually a revision of a drawing I did for a proposed cover for the 1997 revival, the one that never really saw light of day. By the way, I have a tattoo of the Big GREEN Ghoul on my right upper arm. JS: he does. don't make him get it out. cause he will. he's crazy VG: We got the image (LAUGHS)

VG: How, and when, did Andy Marlette get involved with some of the graphics and the mini-comics?

MS: Andy Marlette is the staff cartoonist for the Pensacola News Journal, where Joe and I both work at our day jobs. Joe is a technician in the photo department; I'm one of the editors of the newspaper website. I was originally going to attempt the comic, but thought Andy would do a better job. As it turned out, he did. Because of circumstances, however, I'm going to have to do the art for the comic in issue 4.

VG: Why is that?

MS: Mostly because Andy is too swamped with work.

VG: How have you gone about marketing Ghoulash this time? What is different from the original marketing strategy?

MS: Well, remember that we still are not marketing geniuses, but basically we are attempting to market Ghoulash as an independent publication to game and/or comic stores. Even though it's a game, it's packaged as a magazine and we would like it to be marketed as such. We'd like to see comic stores put it on their magazine racks or on racks near their RPGs. Our basic business model is to make the scenario packs inexpensive enough so that players, when they've used up all the charts in a book, will simply buy another copy rather than go to the time and expense of photocopying it. (By the way, the packs we sent you in your AGN kit still have the original $6.95 price on them. We have since lowerd the cover price per book to $4.95, and all the books we ship out from now on will reflect that price.)

Rose: coolness - I'm sure that will help the marketing as well. The younger players will be able to buy it with allowance money.

MS: That's what we hope!

VG: Do you think the Short Stories on the web and the Mini-Comics in the Scenario Packs help to market the game? How Much?

MS: Joe, what do you think about the short stories and the mini comics?

JS: I think the stories and comics help in a big way, exactly how much I don't know. But I do know that the stories bring a lot of traffic to our site and I have heard from people who have asked for more, so I do know that the stories are a factor in bringing in people, and hopefully the comics will do the same if not more once we get them going.

VG: Do you think you will ever create, or authorize the creation of a full comic book, or series of Comics? What about Novels or collections of Short Stories?

JS: I would definitely like to should the opportunity present itself, But personally I like the mini comics

MS: We've actually toyed with the idea of doing a full-fledged Ghoulash Adventures comic. And I have in the works a short story collection (at least in the sketchy stages) that I'd like to publish as a print-on-demand book via Café Press. Our next step is the web comic that we mentioned earlier.

VG: In your opinion, how well do you think the game is doing at present?

MS: Considering it's only been "officially" released since September, I'm happy with its status. Would I like to see more per-store sales? Of course. But I think we're still in that shakedown stage of a new product. I mentioned the phrase "tipping point" earlier. I really believe that we will eventually reach our tipping point, when the right people discover the game at the right time and manage to get out the word to the right number of other people. Until then, Joe and I will keep plugging away, marketing as best we can using the resources we have.

VG: So you think the game is doing well? At least as well as you can expect at this stage?

JS: yes, indeed

MS: As well as we can expect. I think some stores still don't know quite what to do with it, but we hope to be able to educate them. If we can get more Ambassadors that will certainly help.

VG: Well we are doing our best at our local stores for you. Do you think that maybe full books or a full comic series would help the progression and popularity of the game?

MS: I think it would. The problem is, we are operating under limited resources. The best we can do at the moment is use print-on-demand solutions. But something like that certainly is in our future. Stay tuned: You're going to see a lot more of our Ghoulash Adventures in the weeks ahead.

VG: We hope so!

JS: They might, but when I said earlier that I prefer the mini-comic, it was because we can put both scenarios and the comic easily into the same package, I’m not sure we could get that same affect from a solid book of scenarios or a full comic book

VG: What about fan stories? Have you received any Fan-Fiction? If you do, do you plan on posting it?

JS: Definitely, I know from other sites that fan stories are a big draw

MS: We've not yet received fan fiction. We haven't solicited it, but we wouldn't turn it down if it showed up. The same with fan art. We'd love to see how our fans would depict Ghouls.

Rose: Have you thought about marketing action figures of the entire Ghoulash cast or plushies of the Ghoul? I know I would love to see a plushie of the Ghoul.

JS: yes

MS: I've thought about making little plush Ghouls, similar to the way I made the Sense of Humor dolls. It's one of those back-burner projects, however.

VG: Ghoulash seems to be a rather timeless game. It seems to have withstood the test of time since 2001. Much like many old board games that can always be found in the stores. Do you think it will continue to stand the test of time and go on long after others have faded away?

JS: I certainly hope so, having such an easy game to learn and play hopefully means that kids that learn to play will hopefully teach it to their children and them their children and so on and so on..

MS: I think so. Because of the varied-scenario concept, we can keep going with new scenarios for years to come. And I think the basic mechanic of the game is such that if someone in 2011, say, discovers our original scenario packs, they'll be just as exciting as they were back in 2001. And Joe and I hope to eventually publish scenario compilations down the road, kind of the Best of Ghoulash.

VG: That sounds great. Let's talk a bit about you personally before we end this interview. How old are you two now?

MS: I'm 51.

JS: I'm 24

VG: Where do you live? (City & State)

MS: Pensacola, Florida

VG: Have you always lived there?

JS: yes

MS: Almost all of my life. I was born in New Jersey, a Navy brat. My father was stationed here when I was 3, and he retired here.

VG: Is there anywhere you would like to live if you could?

JS: Not that I can think of, I love it here. I've never traveled much either.

MS: I also love it here.

VG: Just to separate it from previous responses - What do you two do for a living? Aside from making Ghoulash?

JS: I'm a Photo Technician for the Pensacola News Journal

MS: I'm one of the editors of the Pensacola News Journal website.

VG: How long have you worked these jobs?

JS: 3 years come October

MS: I've been at the News Journal, in a variety of capacities, since 1978. (Been a reporter, columnist, page designer, copy editor, entertainment and TV editor, assistant features editor, Online Editor, etc.)

VG: How do you like your jobs?

MS: Love it, although I'd rather be publishing Ghoulash full-time.

JS: I like it very much what he said

VG: If Ghoulash became a huge success, which we hope it does, would you quit your current jobs to pursue it (assuming you had to for some reason such as time), or would you give it to someone else to continue?

MS: I would want to work on Ghoulash full-time. I'd hate to have to turn it over to someone else, unless it was Joe.

JS: I would too

VG: Just out of curiosity, if you could have any job in the world, what would it be?

MS: Not to be too precious about it, but Ghoulash would be it. Producing Ghoulash allows me to do everything I love and have been trained to do -- writing, cartooning, publication design and editing, copywriting, web design, game design and production, etc. It's like I've worked my whole life to build the skills to produce this game. Also, I had to work 24 years to raise a son who could be my partner. That's not easy to do. I had to get it right the first time.

VG: Of all the answers I have ever gotten in asking that question, that has to be the best I've ever heard.

Rose: I'm with Vic on that. It's amazing to find someone soo dedicated to a project.

VG: What about you Joe?

JS: A Game designer (Ghoulash), but to be more specific a concept um....guy. I love just coming up with ideas. Dads not the only one I think for. I bounce ideas off my writer friend and filmmakers and more. I love the creative aspect of it, Don't know what you call it, but definitely anywhere I can be creative without restrictions

VG: So a Concept Artist? That's fairly funny actually. It would seem you and I have a lot in common. I am a Concept Artist.

JS: nice

VG: Mike, you are married right? How long? How does she feel about Ghoulash?

MS: Yes, I've been married to Lani for almost 25 years (in December). Lani is not a genre fan. She's not into science fiction or fantasy or gaming or comics or anything like that. Joe and I had to convince her that we could make a go of Ghoulash. But once we had her convinced, she became a devoted colleague and helper. She's our financial person and the "normal" one off whom we can bounce our concepts and project plans. She's never played Ghoulash and I doubt she ever will, but she's 100 percent in our corner.

VG: Joe, are you married or have a Girlfriend?

JS: No I’m not married, and am not currently seeing anyone

VG: Has Ghoulash ever created any problems in your relationships, or has it helped to create or strengthen relationships with others?

MS: No problems, as yet. I think it's helped us to get to know more people, that's for sure.

JS: I think my relationship with my mom is the most important thing. Also, I've made connections with new friends and met a lot of new people and have gotten to know old ones better.

VG: Do you get a lot of suggestions for Scenarios or Rules from fans? And how do you feel about it if you do? MS: We've only gotten a few suggestions as to scenarios. We don't mind it. We have to let folks know that we're unable to offer compensation, other than some freebies and such. So far we haven't implemented any fan ideas for scenarios. We've also received a bunch of suggestions as to different methods of distributing the game and for related products, etc.

VG: Are there any questions you have been asked a lot by fans, that we have neglected to ask, that you would like to address?

MS: We've had a lot of folks ask when Scenario Pack 4 is coming. It's been delayed, but is on its way. We don't have a timetable yet, but it will be out as soon as we can produce it. Our hope is to get the packs back on a quarterly schedule, then eventually on a monthly basis, if possible. Other than that, I think we've covered a lot here.

VG: We try to be thorough and take that as a compliment! Thanks. Is there anything either of you would like to say, in closing, to the people who are reading this?

MS: We'd just like to thank those folks who have been willing to give our strange little game a try, and particularly to those who have helped to pass the word of Ghoulash on to others. We realize that, to a certain extent, Ghoulash is the kind of game that you have to "get." It's not something you can lump in with other games or genres. It's its own animal, and not everyone "gets" that. Little by little, however, people are catching on, and we'd like to thank them for their consideration. Also, we'd like to stress that Ghoulash is not just a "gamer's game." And it's not just a game for zombie fans or horror fans. Despite its name and its setting, it's actually a game for the whole family. Lots of parents play Ghoulash with their kids. It's also a game that's enjoyed by folks who don't necessarily like games. We've heard from gamers who've told us that they play it with their wives or girlfriends who aren't gamers, and they love it. We could go on and on, but we're just trying to get the point across that Ghoulash is something that can be enjoyed by anyone at any time, anywhere.

JS: Yeahhhhhh...

VG: Well it was great talking to you and we thank you for your time, the several hours of it we have taken up (We started at 9pm EST and it is now just after 1:30am EST - so a bit over 4 and a half Hours!), and we really appreciate it. And we think that the fans of Ghoulash will appreciate it as well. We hope and wish for the best of luck to you both and the game - "Ghoulash: The Last Game On Earth!”

MS: Thanks, Vic and Rose, for taking the time and for helping to get the word out about our game. We are deeply in debt to you.

VG: You flatter us. This is just what we do. We find something we like, and we do what we can to support it. I have done a few interviews for various sites around the net, and several reviews. This is the first time we do it for our own site though. (LAUGHS) But it's nothing really. We enjoyed this very much.

Rose: We have already planted the seeds of Ghoulash with the comic book store's owner and she seemed really anxious to play. She's going to promote it to customers and with her father who owns the store. So soon, we should be hearing something back.

MS: That's great to hear. If there's anything else we can do to help in that regard, let us know. And if you have any other questions down the road, please don't hesitate to write either one of us. Take care, you guys.

Vic & Rose Graves